Announcer (00:00:00):
Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. The weekly podcast where Dr. G gives you the tools you need to boost your health and live your healthiest life.
Dr. Gundry (00:00:14):
Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Ever heard of toxic wine? Well, if you’ve read any of my books, the answer is absolutely, positively yes. I’m talking about wines that are full of one of the deadliest disrupters; glyphosate, the key biocide in Roundup. But, my guest today expands the definition of a toxic wine beyond that. In fact, he’s actually built an entire business curating the cleanest wines on the planet. He’s Todd White, self-professed bio hacker and founder of Dry Farm Wines, subscription based wine club that sources natural wines from small family farms. If you are a wine lover like me, or just like to stay informed about the latest trending topics, hang tight because when we come back, Todd is going to reveal what may actually be in your glass of wine and it’s not just fermented grapes. Explain what the heck carb free wine is, and most importantly, help you find the purest and tastiest wines out there. Stay tuned, we’ll be right back.
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Welcome to the podcast, Todd. Great to have you on and congrats on your success. I see many of my health contemporaries praising Dry Farm Wines.
Todd White (00:04:40):
Thank you, excited to be here and talk about the dirty, dark secrets in the wine business.
Dr. Gundry (00:04:45):
Yeah, let’s get to the heart of the issue. What is exactly wrong with most wine out there today?
Todd White (00:04:52):
Well, if we look at the food industry, nine or 10 companies basically control most of the food in the United States. The same thing has happened in the wine business in the last 30 or 40 years. You’ve had massive corporate consolidation fueled by Wall Street money and greed. Here’s where the problem begins, is this is all about money. It’s not about making wine better or healthier, it’s about making it faster and cheaper. That’s the foundation of the problem.
When you look at the wine industry, over 50% of US wines are manufactured by just three giant conglomerates, multi-billion dollar conglomerates. The top 30 wine companies in the United States make over 70% of US wines. The reason that’s important, is because you don’t know that. The reason you don’t know that they’re manufactured in these massive factories, most of them located in California, is because the wine industry hides behind these conglomerates. Hide behind thousands of brands and labels to confuse you. To have you believe that you’re drinking from a farmhouse or chateau, that’s how they market it. But in fact, most of the wine that you’re drinking comes out of massive factories in central California.
That’s where it begins, but here’s the secret they don’t want you to know about. There’s 76 additives approved by the FDA for the use in wine making. Now, some of these additives are indeed natural and some of them are indeed quite toxic. The most toxic of these additives is called dimethyl dicarbonate. Dimethyl dicarbonate is used to treat the single most prevalent bacterial fault found in wine, called Brettanomyces. Tens of millions of gallons of wine are treated with this toxic chemical. Here’s the problem: transparency issue. Is that wine is the only major food product without a contents label. It also does not contain any nutritional information, so you don’t know how much sugar’s in it. Now, if you care about your health, as I do, or the way I think about health, I care about sugar intake. You can’t look at a bottle of wine and get any nutritional information or content. So some wines contain dimethyl dicarbonate or ammonia phosphate or copper sulfate, or any number of other chemicals that are added to wine legally, but you don’t have any way of knowing your wine contains it or not because there’s no transparency in wine.
We’re advocates for putting a contents label on a bottle of wine. We advocate for this all the time because if I go into the store and I pick up anything that’s processed, and wine is processed, I pick up any processed food, the first thing I do is I look at the contents and nutritional information to decide if I want to put that in my body. With wine you don’t have that option, so from our perspective, that’s the primary problem.
Dr. Gundry (00:08:10):
I have a dumb question. Why doesn’t labeling laws apply to wine like all other food?
Todd White (00:08:15):
Oh, what a great question. It comes back to money and greed. The politicians in Washington, DC at the TTB and the FDA and also your local jurisdictions, state jurisdictions, alcohol is one of the few products that are regulated at a state level, there’s not a lot of federal intervention in alcohol law. A little bit. The TTB, which used to be the old ATF before Waco, the TTB, which is the Tax and Trade Bureau, oversees the labeling of wine and the FDA approves additives that go into wine. Everything else is in the state jurisdiction, so it’s very confusing. But Washington controls the label. The TTB controls what goes on the label. Politicians, fueled by lobby money, wine industry spent millions of dollars in lobby money to keep contents label off of wine because they don’t want you to know what’s in it.
It’s very straightforward. I mean, there’s nothing mystical about any of this. Everything I’m telling you, industry size, consolidation, additives in wine, is all available in a simple Google search. Everything that I’m going to share with you is just not well known, but it’s readily available through Google.
Dr. Gundry (00:09:44):
Yeah, I share a couple years ago I was at a meeting in Colorado where I was speaking, [inaudible 00:09:57] weekend. I was speaking with Robert Mondavi, Jr. Sorry, Michael Mondavi and Al Gore. Michael Mondavi said, “We are actually addicted to chemicals and it actually took us personally in our wines, 10 years to withdraw from the addiction to chemicals in our wine.” I thought that was a rather impressive comment to make from a leading winemaker about how prevalent even in the growing of grapes and the making of wine, chemicals pervade the industry. I’m sure you can elucidate on it.
Todd White (00:10:50):
Well, it begins with farming and this is an important distinction. It begins with farming, chemicals are readily used. Roundup, as you mentioned earlier, glyphosate, is the number one applied herbicide to US vineyards. You can usually tell, you can look at a vineyard and tell if it’s been treated with glyphosate because the surface of the soil looks like lava. It looks almost like the moon. It’s a very, very hard surface and there’s absolutely nothing growing below it. When you go to a natural vineyard, we’ll talk about what natural wine is and why we call it natural and what defines natural wine, but when you go to a natural vineyard where no chemicals are used… Well, let me take it one step back. You have organic farming and then you have natural farming. All natural farming is always organic. Not all organic farming is natural.
Organic farming has some leeway. But natural farming’s always organic. When you go to a natural vineyard, in fact, not only will you see things growing below the vines, it looks almost like forestation. The weeds and the plant material can be waist high just below where the grapes are trellised. Because the natural farmer wants insects in his vineyard because nature has a balance. Nature’s been figuring this out for a couple billion years. The natural farmer believes that everything is connected in nature. That there’s a bio diverse ecosystem there that allows for plant materials to co-exist along with insects. We have this farmer in Italy, he describes insects in the soil as little animals. That’s how he translates it in English.
But see, the natural farmer doesn’t plow because the natural farmer believes that plowing disrupts the ecosystem that exists just below the mulch and the topsoil where there are millions of organisms living. The moment that you plow, what you do is you turn up that soil and you expose it to the sun and you kill the soil. Because the heat of the sun kills all of the organisms. You don’t see plowing in natural grape growing. You actually see flowers and a lot of intentionally planted flowers to attract butterflies and other insects to the vineyard. Because the natural farmer believes that everything is connected and that nature will solve its own problems.
I live in Napa Valley and when you drive by vineyards, most of them have been sprayed and you can tell that because there’s absolutely nothing alive anywhere near the vineyard. There might be a little patch of grass or plant material between the rows, but just underneath the vines it’s just bare, it’s black. It’s like a lava looking, it’s so hard, the surface is terrifically hardened because there’s no living soil there to break it up. There’s no living organisms, it just becomes very, very hard, particularly with the California sun. It just becomes terrifically hard.
Also, the other problem we think that maybe glyphosate is getting in wine through irrigation. We know that glyphosate is present in many wines and even organic wines and we don’t really know why. But we do know that more than 99% of US vineyards are irrigated. Name of my company is Dry Farm Wines. We don’t allow irrigation on any of our vines. Now, we also don’t sell domestic wine, I don’t drink domestic wine. No domestic wines meet all of our criteria. But dry farming is one of those criteria. When you irrigate you create a whole other host of problems. Not only is it bad for the planet, we don’t have enough water now, so not only is it bad for the planet, but it also makes for a lazy vine. Lazy vines produce lazy fruit of lower quality, which is the reason why most of Europe it’s illegal to irrigate a grapevine.
But let me go back to what a natural wine is because I think this will tie everything together a bit. Natural wine is a very confusing term to consumers. Because I tell people I sell natural wine, they’re like, “Well, aren’t all wines natural?” It’s very confusing. In fact, they’re not. Natural wine is a very specific wine growing and fermentation protocol. It’s not complicated, in fact, it’s quite simple. It’s way more simple than your conventional wines, which are not natural. There are two types of wine in the world. There’s natural and conventional, just nothing really in between.
Now, before we get all the way down that path, I want to mention for a second about organic wine. Organic wine is not always natural, but all natural wines are always organic. Just because a wine says it’s organic, doesn’t mean that it’s natural. This whole confusion is one of the reasons for our success, is that we’re the largest buyer and seller of natural wines in the world. We really think of ourselves as a health company, not as a wine company. Our audience are people who care about what they put in their body. Of course, we are trusted in this world of health because it’s our lifestyle, it’s the way we live. We’re not here for some marketing pitch. In fact, we’ll talk about this in a moment, but alcohol is super toxic and one of the most dangerous neurotoxins on the planet that ruins millions of peoples’ lives every year. And some people shouldn’t drink at all.
Dr. Gundry (00:17:49):
Absolutely.
Todd White (00:17:50):
Right, so I’m not here to advocate for people to drink, but what I do is I educate people if you’re going to drink, then this is what you should drink and this is why, whether you get it from me or not. Let me go back to the natural wine. We’ll get to the toxicity of alcohol in a moment. But natural wine is a very simple definition. Natural wine is always organically or bio dynamically farmed. Bio dynamic farming is a prescriptive, advanced form of organic farming. We could spend 15 minutes on bio dynamic, we don’t need to go there, it’s an advanced, prescriptive form of organic farming. All natural wines are either organically or bio dynamically farmed.
Number two: this is the big one, it’s very important. Natural wines are always fermented with wild, indigenous, native yeast. Conventional wines are almost, let’s call always, fermented with lab cultured, GMO yeast. Now what’s all that mean? Well, on the skin of every grape berry at the time harvest, at maturity, all grape berries, no matter where they’re grown or whether they’re irrigated, it doesn’t matter, all grape berries have yeast on the skin of the fruit. It’s a white, waxy film. You could use your fingernail to scrape it off, it’s just waxy and it’s on the skin of all grapes. That’s a wild, indigenous, native yeast that’s collected in the air in the vineyard.
Now, natural winemakers allow that yeast and that yeast alone to ferment to create the wine, to create alcohol. It’s called a spontaneous fermentation because everything needed to make wine is already present on the grape. Only thing you need to make wine is yeast and fruit juice that has sugar in it. Fermentation is when the yeast inoculates and starts to eat the sugar and the byproduct of that is ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide, that’s how wine is made.
However, in the conventional world, the reason that they’re using these lab grown, commercial yeast, is because the native yeast, this indigenous, wild yeast is temperamental, it’s difficult to work with, you cannot make wine in very large volumes using it, it’s too unstable. So you’ll end up with a broken fermentation, which means that the yeast dies off before it completes its fermentation.
So these commercial lab grown, GMO yeast are manufactured to be more stable. They will also withstand a higher alcohol environment. You can make wine in any quantity you want with them because they’re very sturdy and they don’t require a lot of coddling. It’s the yeast of choice for virtually everyone except for the natural winemaker. Now, natural wines, by the way, are quite rare. They’re not expensive. We’ll get to that, but they are rare. They represent less than one tenth of 1% of wine production worldwide. As an example, South Africa is the eighth largest wine producing country in the world, but there are only five natural winemakers in the entire country.
Most natural wines are grown in and across Europe. We have a dozen or so growers in South America, five in South Africa, and the rest are spread across Europe. It’s worth noting that there are about 25 natural wine growers in the United States. Maybe as many as 40, but they don’t make wines according to our specific requirements. Dry Farm Wines has requirements far and beyond just being natural. We also do lab testing, as you’re familiar with, and we have a number of requirements that exceed just the natural format, and I’ll cover those in a moment.
Natural wine, organic, bio dynamic, native yeast fermentation and then they’re additive free. That’s pretty much the end of the story on natural wine. Spontaneous fermentation, no additives, nothing but honest, true wine. Now commercial wines, as we already talked about, may contain these additives. They’re conventionally farmed, their irrigated usually.
We recommend that people drink this natural wine product. Again, whether they get it from us or not. That’s what constitutes a natural wine, it’s quite straightforward. It’s just it’s all very confusing to people who aren’t familiar with it.
Dr. Gundry (00:23:13):
How did you decide that you were going to get into clean or natural wine? I mean, was there an epiphany for yourself, did you say, “I live in Napa Valley and I see what’s going on and there’s got to be a better way?” Or were you walking a vineyard in Europe and going, “Hey, what’s all the weeds doing in here?”
Todd White (00:23:38):
No, it was actually I was a bio hacker and a health and fitness enthusiast for many years. And I drank wine from all over and plenty of wine from domestic vineyards. But I started experimenting with a ketogenic diet about six or seven years ago. Now ketogenic, keto is very popular in the mainstream. Nobody knew what it was at the time. There’s a quite famous researcher, his name’s Dr. Dominic De’Agostino, he’s the best known ketogenic researcher. There are a number of well known researchers, but he’s done the best job of marketing himself, if you will. He’s a terrific, terrific guy. But he showed up on the- [crosstalk 00:24:28]
Dr. Gundry (00:24:28):
I know him well.
Todd White (00:24:28):
What’s that?
Dr. Gundry (00:24:29):
I know him well.
Todd White (00:24:30):
Yeah, he’s a good guy and recommends our wines exclusively and drinks our wines and has published numerous times blood testing and keto testing with our wines and that they have no impact on your ketosis. But anyway, I’d started experimenting with what I’d call a therapeutic ketogenic diet, so pretty hardcore, which I did for a couple of years. I got bored with it, didn’t find it sustainable and now I’m on what I would call a modified ketogenic diet and have been for years, which looks more like Atkins. It’s just very low carb. But when I started ketogenic diet, it’s hard to say with nutrition, but I don’t know if it were a number of co-factors or I was getting older, or for whatever reason, I didn’t feel good drinking conventional wines anymore.
I thought it was the alcohol because alcohol levels had been rising in wine and I’d been drinking wine and alcohol for a long time. I thought along with aging, that it was just that I was becoming more sensitive to alcohol. I was talking to a friend, this was before I knew anything about natural wines and when I discovered natural wines nobody outside of Europe knew what they were. I was talking with a friend, the smartest person I know in the wine business in Napa Valley, and I was saying, “I think I’m going to make some low alcohol wine because I’m having a challenge with drinking. I think I’m having a challenge with alcohol in my life and I don’t want to stop drinking, but it’s just causing me to feel bad and brain fog and I’m not enjoying it. But I don’t want to quit.”
He said, “Have you tried some of the low alcohol wines that are made in Europe?” I was like, “Never heard of such a thing.” He said, “Yeah, check it out.” So I started trying to locate these low alcohol wines. They weren’t natural, I didn’t know anything about natural wine at the time. I just started looking for lower alcohol wines and they were extremely difficult to find. We define low alcohol wine at 12.5% or below and most of the wines I drink today are between 7% and 11%. That’s just my preference, both from a taste point of view, as well as I like to drink wine, I’m not a one glass guy. So I want to be able to drink numerous glasses and lowering the alcohol has a huge impact on both my health and my ability to retain a reasonable level of sobriety while I’m drinking. With the occasional glorious exception, I might add.
In this process, basically I accidentally stumbled across natural wine without even knowing what it was. But as I was looking for these lower alcohol wines, I discovered that there was this importer in Paris who was an American, who was bringing in these delicious and amazing wines that were lower in alcohol and I just fell in love with them. So I called him up in Paris, or sent him an email and then I talked to him on the phone. I was like, “Hey, look. I really love these wines, your palate is great, you’re bringing in these lower alcohol wines, they taste delicious. Tell me about it.” He said, “Well, I sell natural wine.” I was like, “What is natural wine?”
That’s how the whole thing started. Then I discovered at the time there were probably about 500 natural winegrowers in the world. Now, there’s probably 1,200 or 1,400, but at the time it was only about 500. So I started really going down this rabbit hole and because I had made wine in Napa Valley in 2005 in a hobby project, I knew a little bit about [inaudible 00:28:37] and so I started doing independent lab testing on these wines. Also, one of the things I was looking for was sugar and the other thing I was looking for was actual alcohol content because it might surprise you to learn, might not, alcohol stated on a wine bottle is not legally required to be accurate.
Dr. Gundry (00:28:57):
Really?
Todd White (00:28:59):
Yeah, it’s another collusion between the government and the wine industry. I started correlating these lab tests, also looking for added sulfur or sulfites. The US legal limit for sulfur 350 parts per million. We don’t allow over 70 parts per million because all wines contain naturally produced sulfite. Any fermented food has sulfite in it. Many foods have sulfites, but if it’s fermented it contains sulfites. Sulfites can be naturally occurring up to 70 parts per million, which is our limit, but our average wine tests out at 39 parts per million, those are all naturally occurring.
We were looking for a number of attributes in lab testing. I started studying these protocols and requirements around lab results and a taste aesthetic that we liked because it’s really important that wine taste great. For us, I mean, we’re really taste makers, we just love the taste of wine, which is one of the reasons I didn’t want to stop drinking, but I was having this adverse relationship with alcohol. Well, I thought it was alcohol. It turns out it could have been a lot of things. See, there’s no real research to support what a GMO yeast means, not a lot of research to support what drinking high levels of sulfur did. I mean, the Romans used sulfur to preserve wine. This is not anything new, there’s just no research to support what it all means.
Here’s what we do know. When you drink lower alcohol, natural wines, you just simply feel better. And you don’t have these adverse effects, particularly from alcohol. Let’s be perfectly clear, I mentioned earlier, alcohol’s a dangerous neurotoxin, some people shouldn’t drink at all. Some days I think maybe I shouldn’t drink, but [crosstalk 00:31:11] fact is I like it. When we drink an alcohol in higher doses, we’re going to have negative impact from that. Everybody will. The first negative impact is going to be disrupted sleep and dehydration. Then that’s going to lead to a whole lot of other side effects that create a hangover if you drink enough.
I like to drink, I drink about a bottle of wine a day. But again, I drink much lower alcohol, 9% or 10% wine. Doesn’t sound like a big difference between 12% and 15%, but I assure you, it’s gigantic in both its affect on you and how you feel. I know you’ve drank our wines and so you know exactly what I’m talking about. I can’t drink conventional wine anymore. The only way I can drink a conventional wine, which is super, super rare, and if it’s heavily oaked, it gives me a headache instantly. Our wines are not oaked. But it’s a very popular taste profile to have these heavy oaked wines. All over the world, not just in the US.
Dr. Gundry (00:32:25):
Let me stop you there for a second because I know a bunch of our viewers and listeners are going, “Oh, my gosh. This guy’s drinking a bottle of wine a day,” and you’re obviously not inebriated talking to me this morning, but-
Todd White (00:32:42):
I don’t drink during the daytime and I don’t recommend anybody else does either.
Dr. Gundry (00:32:45):
Good idea, but I want to mention that in my bestseller, The Longevity Paradox, I profile one of the oldest living human beings, Luigi Carneros, in the 1500s actually chronicled his aging. He died at 102 in the 1500s and one of his prescriptions for great health was he drank a bottle, 750 MLs of wine every day and thought that that was quite prescriptive to good health.
Now, the reason I interrupt you is, those wines, and I actually was just in Pompeii [crosstalk 00:33:30] a few weeks ago, those were natural wines.
Todd White (00:33:33):
Because there were no additives then.
Dr. Gundry (00:33:35):
Yeah, and those were actually fairly low alcohol wines in those days. I was just actually in a vineyard on Mount Vesuvius, which is a bio dynamic vineyard and you’re right. I think it’s fourth generation family now and they’ve got 100 year old vines with trunks bigger than my arm. There’s no grafting, no nothing. They’ve been there for hundreds of years and producing beautifully, I might add. But yeah, you’re right. I don’t want people to be shocked that with low alcohol wines that are “healthy wines,” the idea of having a bottle of wine per day is not as shocking as it may appear and Luigi Carneros would back you up. How’s that?
Todd White (00:34:32):
Yeah, I mean, I couldn’t drink a bottle of conventional wine. I’d just be a drunk, feel terrible, negative remnants hangover, it just wouldn’t work for me. And trust me, I’ve tried that several times.
Dr. Gundry (00:34:50):
Maybe it’s a misconception. A lot of people, there’s a buzz among somms out there that the new movement in natural wine is obviously don’t intervene. But a lot of somms on their websites say, “Now, if it’s a natural wine it’s going to be fizzy and it’s going to be cloudy and it’s going to taste funny. That’s because nobody’s putting any sulfites in it to stop the fermentation.” I’m reading off a website. If it doesn’t taste fizzy, it’s probably not a natural wine. I think that’s a bunch of bunk. What say you?
Todd White (00:35:33):
Yeah, that’s not true, that’s not true. It’s true that there are many funky natural wines. Those are not wines we buy, all right?
Dr. Gundry (00:35:45):
Thank you.
Todd White (00:35:50):
Those wines are faulted, from our point of view. There are a number of classic faults from Brettanomyces to reductive, to mousiness, to just this barnyard funky smell that many of these natural wines emit. So we don’t buy those wines. I don’t care for the taste of those wines. To me, I want to drink a classic, beautiful, elegant wine without all the conventional problems associated with it. So we only buy a very, very small percentage of the wines that we actually taste because many of them are as you described.
Now let’s talk about fizziness and cloudiness or the [lipidity 00:36:36], the clarity of wine. You reach this perfect level of lipidity when you filter a wine. Natural wines are typically not filtered. Some natural wines get some level of filtration, but most do not. It’s not a requirement of natural wines that you don’t filter, it just happens to be that most natural winemakers just in their personal ethos just don’t filter. But not filtering actually is a beautiful thing. Lipidity is useless to me, I don’t care how clear the wine is. I care about the texture of the wine, I care about how the wine feels, I care about the spirit of the wine, I care about it’s supernal, ethereal communication.
So when I think of filtered wine, I think of it the same way if you think about coffee. If you have a drip coffee that runs through a filter, then you’re going to have coffee that has greater lipidity. If you drink a French press, you’re going to have texture in the coffee because there’s going to be these microscopic pieces of coffee that are actually in it. To me, I’d rather drink a French press than a drip coffee because it has more texture. So filtering, from our perspective, is not useful to the wine.
Now, that being said, when you talk about fizziness in a natural wine, that’s a different issue because there are many natural wines that have post bottle fermentation. Now why do they have post bottle fermentation? Because they weren’t sterilized with sulfur dioxide. When you sterilize a wine, you kill everything in the wine, including gut friendly bacteria that Dr. David Perlmutter has written about many times about our wines and natural wine. Is that these living bacteria are what we call living wines because all natural wines are still alive because they haven’t been sterilized with sulfur dioxide.
All conventional wines get heavy doses of sulfur dioxide to sterilize them, to kill the wine. Or what we call mummify and McDonald-ize it. What they want is a consistent bottle to bottle experience and they want it to be able to sit on the shelf life for a long time. Sterilizing the wine achieves these goals, but it also when you sterilize the wine, you kill off living gut friendly bacteria as well.
The fizziness occurs when a wine did not complete its fermentation down to it’s driest bone level and the fermentation process didn’t totally get complete, leaving a small degree of sugar behind in the wine, which then because it’s not sterilized, it continues the post bottling fermentation. This is not intentionally, it’s also how sparkling wines are made, is post bottling fermentation. But we don’t buy these wines typically. Occasionally we’ll find it interesting in a specific type of wine. But generally speaking, we don’t buy wines that have this post bottle fermentation because again, it doesn’t appeal to our taste aesthetic. There’s nothing wrong with it, some people like it. It’s just that what we’re looking for when we buy wine, as I mentioned earlier, we’re looking for classic, elegant, what we just call classic, elegant taste notes of classic wines that are just well made and well grown. So don’t contain any of these bacterial faults that you speak of.
Dr. Gundry (00:40:48):
I’ve heard you speak and I’ve spoken to you at meetings before, you talk about your wines as Paleo friendly, as they’re sugar free or carb free. Tell us how much secret sugar is being put particularly in American wines that consumers aren’t aware of. People say, “Well, wait a minute. Alcohol turns to sugar.” I hear it all the time. I have two questions. Number one: alcohol doesn’t turn to sugar.
Todd White (00:40:48):
It does not.
Dr. Gundry (00:41:24):
Sugar turns to alcohol if you ferment it.
Todd White (00:41:24):
Correct.
Dr. Gundry (00:41:29):
The holidays are almost here and that means parties, but how to stay committed to your health goals with all those tempting lectin laden sugary holiday foods? Ready for my number one tip? Before you attend a holiday party, make sure you hydrate, like a glass of Pellegrino. And pregame with some fiber. Yes, I said pregame with fiber. Why? Because fiber makes you feel full and feeds those good gut buddies, meaning when they’re fed, they help you feel good and full. This doesn’t mean gulping down a glass of clumpy, watery fiber. You could also try a slice of toasted bread from Uprising. Each slice has nine grams of fiber and Uprising sourdough bread is 100% Dr. Gundry approved. It’s made with yes ingredients like apple cider vinegar, flax seed, psyllium husks and avocado oil. It’s tasty and lectin free.
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Tell me about sugar free wine.
Todd White (00:46:01):
Well, here’s the deal. Adding sugar to wine, also known as chaptalization, is illegal in most of the US, certainly in California. That’s not how sugar gets in wine. Let’s talk about how you make wine and then I’ll tell you how sugar gets in wine and why they want it in wine. See, Americans like sugar. In addition to that, I mean, from my perspective, I think sugar is the most dangerous, widely addictive drug on the planet. Well, it’s a global problem, I don’t say Americans. But sugar’s a problem all over the world.
Sugar doesn’t get in wine by adding it. When you ferment wine, when you make wine, you press the grape juice, which is teaming with sugar, it’s very sweet, you press the grape juice into a tank and if it’s natural wine it will spontaneously ferment because it already contains yeast. If it’s a conventional wine, the first thing they do is introduce sulfur dioxide to the wine for the first of three times to kill the native yeast and then they inoculate it with lab grown yeast. They kill the native yeast because they don’t want the two yeasts competing. But either way, whether you inoculate it or whether it’s spontaneously fermented, the way you make wine is that the yeast eats the sugar, like the Pac-Man. Just eats the sugar and then the byproduct of that, that’s food for the yeast. The byproduct of that is ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. That’s how you make wine.
Now, if the wine is allowed to fully ferment, what that means is that the yeast eat all of the available sugar and when they do, the yeast will then die because there’s no food source for them. If the wine is allowed to fully ferment you will have a sugar free wine because the yeast ate all available sugar. And we lab test for sugar because you can’t always taste sugar in wine. At our lab we restrict sugar in wine to less than one gram per liter. Now that’s less than one gram per bottle because as you noted earlier, a wine bottle is usually 750 milliliters. Of course, a liter is a thousand milliliters.
Our typical wine tests out at .02, which legally and statistically sugar free. The government actually has a statistical measurement which allows you to call a product sugar free legally. All right, so our wines are sugar free. Also, fair to note because I get this kind of BS all the time, it’s fair to note that there are some conventional wines, particularly red wines, that are also sugar free and meet our standard because they’re fully fermented. So just because it’s a natural wine doesn’t mean it’s sugar free, or just because it’s a conventional wine doesn’t mean it’s not sugar free.
But here’s what I will tell you. We did lab testing on the top 20 bestselling wines in the United States year before last. We lab tested the top 20 wines for sugar. Only two of the 20 wines, 10%, met our criteria for sugar. The others exceeded our threshold for sugar. Winemakers in the United States like sugar because it creates mouth feel. It also creates a long finish because when you drink a natural wine that’s sugar free and lower in alcohol, it doesn’t have that long, syrupy finish, as you know. That long finish, if you will, while I don’t find it appealing, is oftentimes a way that somms or other wine experts will describe the value of a wine. It’s got a long finish. Well, that long finish is associated with sugar.
It also creates mouth feel, sugar does. But let’s go back again to how it gets in the wine. Here’s how it gets into the wine. Remember, I said sulfur dioxide is used in conventional wine making three times usually. Once to kill the native yeast, and number two this is how sugar gets in or what’s known as RS or residual sugar in the industry, both glucose and fructose. How it gets in there is that they use sulfur dioxide again in the wine to break the fermentation before it completes. On the wine tank, there’s a little device, it’s actually quite simple. Some are more sophisticated as you get into large volume wine making. But if you’re making wine in pretty small quantities, there’s a little device that floats in the tank that will measure the amount of sugar that’s in the wine during the fermentation process. You can see how close you are to completing fermentation. Because the natural wine maker uses this device to because he wants to know when his fermentation is going to end. It’s going to end when the sugar runs out and the yeast dies.
But what happens in the conventional wines, is that they can see the measurement of sugar in the juice at anytime. So when they reach a desirable level of residual sugar, RS as it’s known in the industry, then they dump sulfur dioxide into the wine for the second time and they kill the yeast. Sulfur dioxide kills the yeast so it breaks the fermentation, leaving this residual sugar behind. They can measure it exactly so they know exactly what they’re trying to achieve from a taste and a mouth feel point of view. They have an objective, a winemaker wants to leave X number of grams of sugar per liter. That’s how sugar is measured in wine.
That’s how it gets in. I know all this is very confusing, a lot of information. It’s also fair to note that not all natural wines are sugar free. That just happens to be a requirement of Dry Farm Wines. Not all natural wines are irrigation free, that just happens to be a criteria of ours. Not all natural wines are sulfur free, it just happens to be a requirement of ours. We have these requirements that not all natural wines are low in alcohol. Natural wines can be 15% or 16% alcohol, just like conventional wines. We don’t buy those wines.
In fact, when I first started doing this and I realized that drinking lower alcohol wines made me feel so much better and I could drink so much more. In the very beginning and now we’re the largest natural wine buyer in the world by a multiple of many X, but in the beginning when I went to my first natural wine fair, this is how you find natural wine growers, is because they’ve been ostracized by their neighbors and their communities because they are thought to be crazy for not using conventional and chemical farming and so on. Now it’s quite hip to drink and sell natural wines. Till just the last few years, it wasn’t at all, particularly among their neighbors and peers who thought they were crazy for not using additives and chemicals in their processes.
When you meet these people they’re just hippies. You can’t make a lot of money making natural wine because you can’t make it in large volumes. It’s also difficult. I assure you it’s a lot more difficult to grow wine without irrigation than with irrigation. Why do you irrigate a grapevine? Because it’s cheaper and it creates a higher yield and it creates fruit that weighs more because it might not surprise you when you fill a wine berry with water, it weighs more.
Fruit is sold by the ton, as a result, the more it weighs, the more it’s worth. This is the reason you irrigate. It’s also a lot easier than farming without irrigation, which requires a whole several more layers of work throughout the year. You’ve got to have a winter cover crop and there’s just a whole lot of steps to locking in the moisture under the mulch. But anyway, these people who grow these wines, they are usually as you noted, they’re usually second or third generation growers. They don’t have any capital costs in land because it’s already been paid for, which is why natural wines are not expensive.
Our wines are $25 a bottle and I’ll tell you, you can’t buy a wine that’s organic or naturally grown for less than $20 a bottle. The math just doesn’t pencil out. Our wines are $25 a bottle and the other unique thing about Dry Farm Wines, we sell all of our wines for the same price. There’s no bottle to bottle cost variation. We just say, “Hey, this is simple. Some cost a little bit more, some cost a little bit less. But we’re going to sell them all for the same price to keep it simple.”
Nobody’s getting rich at $25 a bottle, given that they can’t produce large volumes using native yeast. Which is the reason we work with over a thousand small family farms because we need a lot of wine and they can’t make a lot at any one particular place. But these people, you’ve been, you know, it’s a way of life. Their belief system, their belief in the spirit connected nature of the natural, it’s a way of life, it’s the way they eat, it’s the way they live. Most of the family with the farms, and I’ve traveled extensively and have been to hundreds of these farms, stayed with them, eaten with them, it’s a way of life for them. Most natural wine farms, most everyone in the family works on the farm and they live on the farm. They generally eat only things that they grow or are harvested from their neighbors or themselves. They raise their own livestock.
The other thing that you find in natural farming, I mentioned this early, is this commitment to biodiversity. Insects, bees, orchards, trees, livestock.
Dr. Gundry (00:57:32):
Chickens.
Todd White (00:57:33):
Yeah, ducks and chickens and cows. Most of these families and it’s not exclusively true, because you might have a young natural winegrower who’s not yet married or doesn’t have a family. But I’m just saying most of them, they have this lifestyle of the way they live. It’s a very simple way of living and they live this way because they believe, they have a spirit of belief around this way of life and this way of making wine and this way of growing wine. Sounds like you’ve seen it and you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Dr. Gundry (00:58:14):
Oh, yeah. Whenever we travel, my wife Penny and I, actually every trip seek out a bio dynamic winemaker in the area, more than one and ask to walk the fields with them. You’re right, they invite you to lunch. That’s one thing I want to bring up real quick, particularly in Europe. In the United States, we’ve unfortunately raised a culture of happy hour wine drinkers. That concept really thankfully in the villages does not exist. Wine is a beverage that’s had with food. It’s one of the reasons I think because of these low alcohol wines, that you can have multiple glasses over the course of a two hour meal, which would be a normal meal and you’re not going to be drunk. You’re not going to have anything, but it’s something you’re having with a meal.
One of the things that I preach about, the idea of happy hour drinking where we’re having two, maybe three glasses of wine and then go to dinner, that’s part of what I call the beer belly syndrome. In that alcohol, and we were talking about this off camera, alcohol is actually a great preferred fuel to burn preferentially over glucose, over free fatty acids. What happens to a lot of people is they don’t realize, they’ve already met all of the energy requirements for their selves with the alcohol they’re consuming before they sit down to dinner and then they get hit with the carbohydrates, the fats and the proteins from dinner. There’s actually no place to put those and they’re actually turned into fat virtually instantaneously.
I think that’s one of the problems of our culture, that we just don’t see in Europe very much. Has that been your experience?
Todd White (01:00:26):
Yeah, it can vary among wine people because they love to drink wine. But generally speaking, I don’t drink without eating generally, for a whole host of reasons. But the one of particular interest to me is that it’s just a recipe for me to have the brain experience that I’m really not looking for.
Dr. Gundry (01:00:53):
Good point.
Todd White (01:01:00):
It’s also fair to note I only eat once a day.
Dr. Gundry (01:01:05):
Me too.
Todd White (01:01:06):
Yeah, so whenever I start drinking or eating, I’m in a fasted state and have been fasted for 18 or 20 hours. For me, it’s not a desirable effect to drink without eating because the alcohol has such quick absorption in the small intestine, it just gives me a brain effect that I’m not really interested in and is going to lead to… Alcohol’s a domino drug. What I mean by that and why it’s so dangerous, just like cocaine is a domino drug. What I mean by domino drug is that the more you drink, the more likely you are to drink more.
If you’re drinking without eating, then you’re getting the double whammy from the alcohol because there’s no substance there to slow its absorption. You’re drinking more, in de facto faster, because you’re absorption rate is so quick. So for me, I don’t want that. I don’t want to have a quick absorption rate, which is then going to lead me to have a poor brain experience from the alcohol. I want to slow it down, so I want to drink lower alcohol wines and I want to slow the absorption down. When I’m eating and drinking, as you know, you’re going to get a much slower absorption of alcohol and then you’re going to be able to moderate that much better over time. When I say drinking a bottle and sometimes more, but when I say drinking a bottle of wine, generally that’s over a three or four hour period. It’s not like I sit down and drink a bottle of wine.
Dr. Gundry (01:01:06):
Got you.
Todd White (01:03:01):
It’s over a long period of time and food is involved.
Dr. Gundry (01:03:05):
Just like Luigi did. All right, I got to let you go pretty shortly, but you got a new line of products that’s getting a lot of buzz; bolixir. What the heck is bolixir and why would you mess with wine? Come on.
Todd White (01:03:22):
Well, I’ll tell you why we did it. I’ll tell you. Actually, we were introduced to it by an Austrian winemaker’s wife. This is how we got onto it. They were primary sparkling wine producers, and a few years ago they had been recently married and she was going to get pregnant. But they wanted to make a very, very low alcohol wine that she could enjoy in moderation during her pregnancy. That was their goal. So they made this botanical elixer by taking wine and in essence blending it in their case, an elder flower tea. They would sun dry these elder organic flowers and then they’d make a tea from it. They would combine these teas in the fermentation process. Anyway, it resulted in a 5% alcohol wine. You can’t make wine at 5%, it doesn’t taste like wine. So they enhanced the taste by using these botanical additions.
We tasted it, it was great. The reason we pursued it further and started having these botanical elixirs made for us, is because we wanted to release an ultra low alcohol, wine-like experience. Because I believe alcohol is toxic and I wanted to drink lower alcohol wines personally, or have that option. Now, they don’t taste like wine, so it’s a different experience. But basically, we wanted to produce a natural product that had the benefits of botanicals with a lower alcohol, wine-like taste. That’s how we got there.
They’ve been popular, but at the end of the day, I’ll tell you, most people still want to drink wine. They just love the taste of wine and they’ll drink these botanical elixirs, what we call a bolixir, they’ll drink these lower alcohol things for different occasions maybe; around the pool in the late afternoon because they’re very, very low alcohol. Just people want that option, some people do. But I’ll tell you, at the end of the day, the people who buy the product still buy a lot of natural wine. They still want to drink wine.
Dr. Gundry (01:06:17):
We mentioned in the beginning, you’re a subscription service at Dry Farm Wines. How does that subscription work? I mean, my wife and I, I drink almost predominantly red wines, my wife tends toward champagnes for the polyphenol effect of both red and champagne. Can you customize a box or here’s what we’re sending you this month and good luck?
Todd White (01:06:50):
Most of our subscribers get wines delivered, we’re really a wine company for regular wine drinkers. People who drink wine on a regular basis, that’s who I am and people who need the most amount of help are the people who are drinking the most. Drinking occasionally, you probably don’t need our help as much, but most of our customers drink fairly regularly. Maybe not as much as me, but fairly regular. Our two most popular subscriptions are monthly and bi-monthly. Now, that being said, you can buy any frequency you want; quarterly, twice a year. You can get wine from us on any frequency that you want.
Dr. Gundry (01:07:35):
Not daily.
Todd White (01:07:37):
Well, we do have people who get multiple boxes per week.
Dr. Gundry (01:07:41):
Okay, all right.
Todd White (01:07:43):
Some people have several subscriptions. But that being said, you can cancel at any time. We don’t make it difficult, there’s an account portal that you can log into your account, change your frequency, change the type of wine, cancel your subscription. We don’t make it challenging, you don’t have to call us or do anything. If you want to put your subscription on hold, you’re going to leave the country for two months, or you decide I don’t want to drink for a while, you can simply put it on hold and restart it when you want. We don’t make any of that confusing or difficult. We’re not trying to trick people into having a subscription or make it difficult to stop it. If you don’t want it, you don’t want it. I find it offensive when businesses, and there are many subscription type businesses that make it difficult to get out or trick you getting in, that’s not who we are or what we’re about.
You can also choose any mix of wine you want or you can choose a custom order anytime you want just by contacting us. You can get mixed, you can get all red, you can get all sparkling, you can get orange, rose. Orange wine is white wine that has skin contact. Almost all white wines have no contact with the skin. Red wines always have skin contact, that’s how they get their color and the increase in polyphenols is from contact with the skin and seeds and their tannin structure from contact with seeds and stems and skins. We sell orange wine, rose, sparkling wine, white and red. Then some sparkling reds as well and then the bolixir, which is this botanical mix.
Dr. Gundry (01:09:38):
All right, last question. How do I find a healthy wine at the grocery store, Trader Joe’s, the wine shop? Do they exist? Or is there anything to look for or do I have to come to you?
Todd White (01:09:56):
Well, here’s the deal, it’s very difficult because of no contents labeling. In my case, because I drink only lower alcohol wines, and I recommend that people drink lower alcohol wines, they’re very hard to find. It’s just crazy, I go into a restaurant and normally I just take wine in with me, but some states don’t allow it. It depends on what state you’re. In California, you just carry a bottle of wine in a restaurant with you. I’m in New York right now, you just carry a bottle of wine in a restaurant with you. But many states don’t allow it. I was just in Denver last week, they don’t allow it. If you go in and you ask a somm or a wine director like, “Hey, do you have any natural wine?” Usually they don’t even know what it is, or they don’t have it. It’s like, “Okay, well, do you have anything that’s lower in alcohol?” They’re clueless. They’re like, “I don’t know,” because nobody ever asks that.
But here’s how you would find natural wine. If you live in a major market like New York, or San Francisco, or Chicago, or Los Angeles, there are natural wine retailers. You can find them by either doing a Google search or downloading a free smartphone app called Raisin-
Dr. Gundry (01:11:21):
Cute.
Todd White (01:11:21):
If you live in a major market, you’re going to find one or two or three. In New York you would find a dozen, or in San Francisco there are three. In LA there are probably half a dozen retailers that sell exclusively natural wine. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s sugar free, it doesn’t mean that it’s lower in alcohol, it doesn’t mean that it’s been lab tested. It just means that it’s natural wine and you could go in. Those natural wine retailers, they don’t sell conventional wine. I mean, they’re rabidly against it, they’re-
Dr. Gundry (01:12:10):
It’s against their religion.
Todd White (01:12:12):
It’s against their religion, they only sell natural wine. That’s one pathway. If you’re going out to eat, it’s just really difficult. If you’re going out to eat, then I recommend a couple of ways to approach that. If you look at wines that come from colder regions, then you’ll find lower alcohol typically. There’s a tremendous amount of natural wines in Beaujolais where Gamay is the red wine grape. It looks like you have a bottle of Italian wine, if I-
Dr. Gundry (01:12:50):
I do indeed.
Todd White (01:12:53):
I have been to that vineyard, actually.
Dr. Gundry (01:12:56):
Eleven percent alcohol.
Todd White (01:12:58):
Eleven percent, I love that wine, it’s delicious and the wine grower is a great guy. The problem is it’s just not easy. If you live in Wichita, you’re not going to find any natural wine. I was just in Dallas, which is a pretty big city, and there’s one natural wine retailer there that had a super limited selection. It’s just hard. I just recommend that if people drink lower alcohol wines, they’re going to typically for whatever reason, even if they’re not natural, if they’re lower in alcohol, the style of the wine making just tends to be better for you. Just drinking less alcohol is better for you. I know people expect me to come on, think I’m selling wine. But I actually talk pretty negatively about alcohol.
It’s not easy, it’s the reason I think that so many people depend on us. That, and the fact that our standards are above natural. We’re bringing a criteria that’s way far advanced more than natural. Gosh, I’ve taken about an hour of your time, which is [crosstalk 01:14:21].
Dr. Gundry (01:14:20):
Oh, no, I got to let you go. I want to just say that again, for anyone who listen. First of all, if you don’t drink, don’t start, rule number one. We could talk about health benefits of wine or the dangers of wine, but for goodness sakes, if you don’t drink, don’t start. Please take that away from what we’ve said. But for those that enjoy a glass of wine from time to time, could you tell us about a special offer that you have for our listeners today?
Todd White (01:14:55):
Yeah, for your audience, we are offering, and I’m sure this will be in your show notes, we are going to send them a extra bottle of wine for one penny. We can’t give it away under the law. But we have a penny bottle offer that we send along and there’ll be a link in the show notes for you to find that offer.
Dr. Gundry (01:15:22):
Well, that’d be great. Todd, it’s been great talking to you, it’s good to see you again. Congratulations on getting this I think much needed product out to wine drinkers everywhere. And one more time, if you don’t drink, please don’t start. But thanks a lot and continued success to you.
Todd White (01:15:43):
Right, thank you for having me.
Dr. Gundry (01:15:44):
All right, take care.
Okay, it’s time for our audience question from [inaudible 01:15:51] Nightwing on Instagram. I hope I got that right. I have two sons, one 14 months old and two and a half years old. Are they too young to start time controlled eating? This is a great question, I get it all the time and thanks for asking. First of all, we have to remember that the idea of breakfast being the most important meal of the day is based on millions, and millions, and millions, and millions of dollars of advertising from primarily breakfast food companies, like cereal manufacturers, who have convinced us that breakfast is what you’re supposed to start with. That’s an early morning basically of sugar. The idea that people eat breakfast is actually a very modern finding. Breakfast really started in the late 1800s in the industrial revolution. I’ve talked about this before.
If you follow hunter gatherers, the last ones that are still in existence, most hunter gatherer societies don’t eat breakfast. They may have their first meal 10:00, 11:00 in the morning, maybe noon or when they find something and the kids follow that same way. Now, most hunter gatherer societies, mothers are breastfeeding their children up to about four years of age. As you know, mothers out there, when your child wants to eat, your child wants to eat. The idea that a child isn’t eating nearly constantly during the day, small child, probably doesn’t go along with experiences. But even in these hunter gatherers, once their kids are weaned, varying like everybody else, varying when they find a berry, or they’re eating later in the day.
Just remember, so much of what we’ve been taught is actually from marketing and not from truth. Having said that, where time restricted eating really starts to pay off is later in life. We also have to be cognizant because of social media, there’s still a body image problem that is taking over young girls, young women, teenage girls and manipulating eating patterns necessarily can feed into negative behaviors. You got to have a lot of judgment in this area. Just remember breakfast is a very, very modern invention. Great question.
Time for the review of the week.
Lauren Freedman (01:19:07):
Listen to Your Eyes is a podcast series from Horizon Therapeutics for people who have a thyroid condition and are experiencing problems with their eyes. Join me, Lauren Freedman, as I talk with [inaudible 01:19:17], who is living with Graves Disease and TED, as well as Jeff Todd, president and CEO of Prevent Blindness. [inaudible 01:19:24] will share insights into her diagnosis and her TED journey, while Jeff will detail the role advocacy organizations play in providing resources to and advocating for patients living with these conditions. He will also discuss the importance of receiving support and encouragement, as well as discovering a sense of belonging through a community.
Dr. Gundry (01:19:48):
Nico S. watched my interview with Robert Slovak on water filtration and said, “I am so happy to find your channel. Excellent work. With love, from Greece.” Well, thanks very much, Nico S. This interview got a lot of positive comments. I think it’s really important to learn about where our water comes from, what’s in our water, exciting to learn about deuterium depleted water. And glad we’re coming to you from Greece and some of the longest living people in the world are in Greece. So keep up the good work and don’t go to modern habits.
That’s it for today and keep writing on wherever you get our podcast, write on iTunes, give us a review because I’m Dr. Gundry and I’m always looking out for you. We’ll see you next week.
On the Dr. Gundry podcast, we provide a venue for discussion and the views expressed by my guests do not necessarily reflect my own.
Thanks for joining me on this episode of the Dr. Gundry podcast. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to watch each episode of the Dr. Gundry podcast, you could always find me on YouTube at YouTube.com/drgundry, because I’m Dr. Gundry and I’m always looking out for you.
