Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Welcome to The Dr. Gundry Podcast. The weekly podcast, where Dr. G gives you the tools you need to boost your health and live your healthiest life.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:00:13):
Welcome to The Dr. Gundry Podcast. Tired of making healthy choices, but not getting the results you want? Well, the issue may have something to do with your metabolism. And if you think your metabolism is holding you back, hear this. Don’t give up, there is something that you can do. In fact, my guests today say, you can hack your metabolism to boost your weight-loss efforts and optimize your workouts. They’re twin sisters, who you’ll see in just a second. Michal Moore, Dr. Of Physiology and Merav Moore, Chief of Science and co-developers of Lumen. A device that uses your breath, to determine if your body is burning fat, or carbohydrates in real time. And for a lot of people, knowing how your unique body burns fat, could be the key to getting your metabolism and weight under control. In just a minute, we will discuss everything you need to know about metabolism and the surprisingly simple technique for helping you reach your health goals. You don’t want to miss this one. We’ll be right back.
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All right, before we dive in, I want to remind you that the tools we are going to discuss today, are not to be used in place of other protocols recommended by your healthcare provider. It’s important to first communicate with your doctor, regarding any of the information you wish to put into practice, especially for serious illnesses. Okay, let’s get started. Okay, well, welcome to The Dr. Gundry Podcast. Now, I’m sure all my listeners hear about metabolism all the time, but can you guys explain what your thoughts are on how our metabolism really works?
Michal Moore (00:05:01):
Sure. First of all, thank you for hosting us, it’s a pleasure. And when we are talking about metabolism, I think that one of the main problem around it, is that people don’t understand that metabolism is basically, our body engine. Meaning, if our body engine is not working properly, we are not going to be able to enjoy quality of life. Weight loss is one of the things that also going to not be under our… Not going to be… Sorry. We’re not going to be able to achieve that, if our body is not functioning well. So, basically metabolic health… Yes, one of the main pillar, is metabolic flexibility. So, a healthy body, which is a flexible body, will be able to shift to use fat when it’s in the right moment, but also will be able to use carbs, depend on the context.
For example, after eating a high carb meal, for example. So, our metabolism should know how to use both type of fuel, fat and carbs, depend on the context. So, if we all know how to do that, we have an efficient metabolism, which is a flexible metabolism, which is a healthy metabolism. And then, basically we are able to achieve quality of life. We are going to have high level of energy. We’re not going to have a drop of energy after lunch, for example. We are going to be able to lose weight. But, more important, we will be able to maintain the weight, which is one of the main problem today, right? Nine out of 10 people that lose weight are not really able to maintain it.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:06:38):
Yeah, that’s true. Almost everybody, either gains all that weight back, or even gains more weight, than where they started. Now, a lot of people, particularly women, blame getting old that your metabolism changes, particularly at menopause. Does metabolism change? Or, do you think something else is going on?
Merav Moore (00:07:08):
So, first I think, when we are referring to metabolism, so like Michal just mentioned, there’s the type of fuel that our body is using. But, metabolism is also the amount of energy that our bodies actually produce. So, when these women complain about their metabolism is being changed, both of these two co-physiological process really change. And it’s because of age, but it’s also because of the nutrition and lifestyle, that has highly affect both of them. One of the main problems when we are getting older, especially women, is that we are losing our muscle mass. In our muscle mass, we have a lot of mitochondria. Those mitochondria are the ones that are responsible to how metabolically flexible we are going to be. So, if we are going to lose muscles, we are going to have fewer and maybe even less functioning mitochondria. And then, our body will less be flexible to use fat and also to shift into carbs. So, basically when we think about women that gain weight, when they’re getting older. The main reason, is because they are losing their metabolic flexibility, they become less flexible.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:08:31):
Well, in my current book, Unlocking The Keto Code, I make a very strong case, that metabolic flexibility is really what drives long term health and that one of the shocking things, and I’m sure you guys know, but even 50% of normal weight individuals, do not have metabolic flexibility. And I’m just going to repeat what you just said, metabolic flexibility is the ability of our mitochondria, to shift from burning sugar as a fuel, to burning free fatty acids as a fuel. And we should be able to do that really, on a dime, right? I mean, you should be able to do that. But, 50% of normal people don’t do that. 88% of overweight individuals can’t do that. And 99.5% of obese individuals can’t do that, have no metabolic flexibility.
Michal Moore (00:09:39):
The funny thing, is that our metabolic flexibility, metabolic health, is basically determined by our lifestyle, by our nutrition, our movement, our sleep and stress management. All those four pillars, going to impact and will determine how metabolically flexible we are going to be. But, at the end, as you just said, 88% of the population in the US, are metabolically not flexible. And Merav and I, keep asking ourself, how is it? Because, all of those four pillars, nutrition, sleep, mind, and movement, are under our control. So, one of the main things that’s holding us back, is basically behavioral change, right?
Because, if all of us are going to move more, we’re going to eat a healthy nutrition-
Merav Moore (00:10:33):
[Inaudible 00:10:33].
Michal Moore (00:10:32):
Sleep more, they going to be less in stress. Those number are going to be much less, but still it’s not the case. So, what we are trying to bring to the world, is that ability that, if you are able to measure your metabolic health and see the impact of your lifestyle on your metabolic health, being able to measure that impact, this will help you to change your behavior. So, this is basically what Merav and I are doing in the last eight years.
Merav Moore (00:11:07):
Wow, it’s been eight years.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:11:13):
So, what made you want to develop a system to measure metabolic flexibility? Let’s start there. So, eight years ago, you said-
Merav Moore (00:11:26):
[Inaudible 00:11:26].
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:11:27):
“We’re going to be famous-”
Merav Moore (00:11:28):
Together.
Michal Moore (00:11:30):
Merav said that we must-
Merav Moore (00:11:37):
We had to find something that we can do together. So, we-
Michal Moore (00:11:37):
No.
Merav Moore (00:11:38):
No, it was a joke.
Michal Moore (00:11:40):
Eight years ago… No, maybe even more. Our passion to metabolic flexibility started in 2008-
Merav Moore (00:11:50):
With-
Michal Moore (00:11:50):
Both of us, we were in our last year of PhD and we started to compete to our first element competition. Now, you familiar with that?
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:12:00):
Sure-
Merav Moore (00:12:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:12:00):
Absolutely.
Michal Moore (00:12:06):
So, you know that most of the competitor crashed, after 20 kilometers of running. I mean, they’re doing amazing, the swimming, the cycling, but then after 20 kilometers, their bodies just don’t have energy anymore and they crash and we thought to ourself, “Wow, if we want to do that, we need our body to use the right fuel at the right moment. So, we will have enough energy to finish the marathon.” So, in 2008, you probably know, metabolic flexibility was not a common term. I mean, at least not outside the lab, or in the scientific community. So, we couldn’t find really proven strategies in order to improve our metabolic flexibility. So, we started to do many experiment. We used to eat our biggest meal in the morning and we went to six-hour cycling on fasting condition in order to improve mitochondrial functionality and in the competition at the end, we did amazing.
Merav Moore (00:12:06):
Yeah, we did very well.
Michal Moore (00:13:06):
We compete with very muscular men and they crashed and we just kept going and we finished with a smile. But, still we finished and there was something missing for us. And this ability to measure what we did, what has the highest impact? So, we would put our effort on and what has less impact, because we did many things. And after the first [inaudible 00:13:39] competition, we said, “Okay, let’s build. Let’s take a technology that is already being used in the hospitals, since the ’60s. And made it available to us. So, we will be able to measure how metabolically flexible are we? And what is the impact of all the things that we all keep trying on ourself, on us?” So, this is how everything begin.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:14:05):
So, how did you take the rather large, cumbersome apparatus that we use in an exercise physiology lab, or in the hospital and turn it into something that looks like a vape machine? No offense.
Michal Moore (00:14:24):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:14:29):
How did you miniaturize this, number one?
Michal Moore (00:14:31):
No.
Merav Moore (00:14:31):
I think, there were two main challenges. One is really to miniature the technology, but the second, and I think, it’s what we are more proud at, is to make it valid, to take a measurement that takes 45 minutes in a lab, that you have to lie down, cover with something like an Astronaut. And then, you need a physician to analyze the data. So, now we’re able to measure metabolism in only one breath. And it’s based on quite of simple technique, which is a holding technique. You inhale a specific amount of air into your lungs, you hold for 10 seconds, and then you exhale. Lumen measure the carbon dioxide at this very specific point when you exhale, which is relative to your personal lung capacity. The holding phase enable actually, equilibrium between the carbon dioxide in the blood, to the air in the lungs.
So, when you exhale and we are actually measure carbon dioxide, that indicates on the metabolism that being used in your cells. Do I need to… Well-
Michal Moore (00:15:58):
Maybe, to try to simplify it. Our body, right? Each one of our cells, all the time, produce energy and release carbon dioxide to the blood. This carbon dioxide can tell us the type of fuel that being used. Using the Lumen maneuver, this carbon dioxide, diffuse to the lung, and we measure it in exhaled air. So, this is how we can tell, the set to tell you about your metabolism, instead of going to one of the clinics, or hospitals and lie down for 45 minutes.
Merav Moore (00:16:33):
Basically, when your body is using carbs, it produces more CO2, whether when it’s using fat. So, if we could measure what is happening in our blood, we are able to know what type of fuel your body is using.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:16:45):
So, even when you’re mainly, burning carbohydrates, sugar, glucose, you produce more carbon dioxide, relatively compared to when you’re burning free fatty acids, as a fuel.
Michal Moore (00:16:45):
Mmm-hmm.
Merav Moore (00:16:45):
Yes.
Michal Moore (00:17:03):
Even though, the calories may be exactly the same. Am I okay?
Yes.
Merav Moore (00:17:10):
Exactly.
Michal Moore (00:17:10):
Exactly.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:17:13):
And again, this is what we do in an exercise lab. But, you are doing it, not in an exercise lab. You’ve worked out an algorithm that says, “With just one breath, you can duplicate what would take a half an hour in an exercise lab,” right?
Merav Moore (00:17:33):
Yes, which is that-
Michal Moore (00:17:35):
[Inaudible 00:17:35].
Merav Moore (00:17:35):
I think, it was a year ago. We just published a validation study in [J Mill 00:17:39]. And since then, all research institutes reached out to Lumen, because we actually enable new space to explore metabolism. That until today, was not available.
Michal Moore (00:17:56):
One of the things that Merav and I are passionate about, is to develop the understanding of our metabolism. So, every collaboration that we can create, in order, the world better understand metabolism and metabolic health, it’s nice to us. It’s nice to know that we keep the research and eventually those insight from the academy, those insights, we can use them and bring them to Lumen users. So, it’s a win-win.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:18:33):
Okay. So, let’s go back to maybe a dumb question, but obvious question. Why would I want to burn fat as a fuel sometimes? Why shouldn’t I just burn sugar, as of fuel? I got sugar everywhere. What the heck? I might as well, just have a donut every two hours and I’ll be fine. Why wouldn’t I do that?
Michal Moore (00:19:02):
So, first of all, if you’re all the time going to eat donuts, yeah? So, all the time, there are going to be an increase in your blood glucose, will cause a spike in insulin. Over time, those spikes in insulin, your body will develop an insulin resistance. Insulin resistance will cause you to become pre-diabetic and diabetic. Also, when you are all the time going eat carbs, or your body is not going to use these fat stores. So, also, your mitochondria are not practicing using fat, so you’re also going to gain weight. So, all this is like a circle, that at the moment that you are starting, all the time consume carbs, you are gaining weight, you mitochondriac functionality become working less properly, and you are develop metabolic syndrome, diabetic and high risk stroke. So, you don’t want to do that. Please don’t eat donuts every day.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:20:02):
I completely agree with you. Number one-
Michal Moore (00:20:03):
I know you, right?
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:20:04):
Number two, there are a lot of people who go, “But, wait a minute. Fat has nine grams per calorie. And carbs, sugar only has four. And so, boy, if I eat fat, I’m going to get fatter and fatter and fatter. So, I ought to eat sugar, so I don’t get fat.” But, that’s not right, right?
Michal Moore (00:20:38):
I think, what are calories, right? Calories, this is a measurement that we invent. We took the food, we put it in isolated box, we burnt it and we measure the heat. This is-
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:20:38):
The heat, yeah.
Michal Moore (00:20:52):
Not what’s happening in our body. At the moment we eat food, the things are happening, hormones creates. Thing is, our body is not an isolated box. So, when we are using calories, it’s not right-
Merav Moore (00:21:08):
It’s contextless.
Michal Moore (00:21:11):
It’s contextless, thank you. This is not how we should measure food that we eat, the same as the weight on the scale should not be used in order to assess how metabolically healthy we are. 20% of the thin people are metabolically not healthy and they are thin. So, there is not a directorial correlation between our weight, to our health. So…
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:21:41):
All right. So, all right. So, I want to have metabolic flexibility and if I use your Lumen device…
Merav Moore (00:21:55):
You don’t have to, you can develop metabolical flexibility, even without Lumen. Lumen can help you, but…
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:22:01):
So, how is our listener going to know, just sitting here today, whether or not they’re metabolically flexible? Because, you and I, we all agree. We want metabolic flexibility. I can’t look at my aura ring and know, I’m metabolically flexible. I can’t look at my WHOOP Band and know, I’m metabolically flexible. I can’t step on the scale and know, I’m metabolically flexible. So, help me out, help our listeners out. How do we know?
Merav Moore (00:22:39):
Okay. So, without Lumen, it’s very hard for you to know, but you can… Because, metabolic health is an output of our lifestyle. So, if you are going to eat healthy food and you’re going to manage your carbs properly, and you are not going to eat late at night and you’re going to move and you are going to manage your stress and you’re going to sleep well, if you’re going to do all of those, you are going to be metabolically healthy. But, you are not going to be able to measure it, but-
Michal Moore (00:23:11):
And this personalize the things that you do. [inaudible 00:23:14]. No, because it is a balance, right?
Merav Moore (00:23:16):
It is. You can sometimes do less, or more. And it really depends on the things that you are willing to do. And sometimes, you can maybe eat a little bit more, but then to do more exercise, or a little bit.
Michal Moore (00:23:32):
So, if you don’t have a Lumen, yes. So, you can track after your energy level and you can see how your craving is. And you can measure also, your happiness level. Because, when we are healthy, we have more energy, we’re more productive, we don’t have those drop of energy. We can keep our weight off. So, basically all the things that we want, are happening. So, we are also happier. So, you can track after all of those on a subjective way. But, if you are more like Merav and myself, when we want to measure, and we want to see, and it’s important to us to see progress from day after day, week after week. So, for that, there is no way really to measure it, beside measure your metabolism day after day. And every week, Lumen is providing you with that score, how metabolically healthy you are. And you also, as Merav said, you are able to see how the things that you did, impact on your metabolic health.
Because, eventually if we will do everything right, we all going to be healthy, but life happens, right? Sometimes, you go to a restaurant. Sometimes, you go with your kids to eat pizza. We’re not all the time, eating healthy and work out and sleeping and all the time… I don’t know, in Thailand, resting on the beach. Sometimes, we are in stress, right? So, it is a balance between all those pillars. And with Lumen, you are able to understand its balance. And if, for example, you see that you are eating more carbs, so you can compensate it with prolong your fast, or finish eating early, or let’s increase the amount of steps. So, it’s a balance between everything. This is why Lumen, it’s not a diet. Sometimes, people think, “Okay, it’s a low-carb diet.” No, it’s not a low-carb diet.
It’s not about low-carb. It’s about low carb, if you want to do low carb. But if, for example, Merav, she find it very hard to do low-carb, right Merav?
Merav Moore (00:25:37):
You’re right.
Michal Moore (00:25:39):
So, she is eating more carbs, but she finish eating early and she prolongs her fast and she do more steps. I have no problem doing low-carb. I’m doing low-carb all the time. But, I like to eat dinner late at night, but I’m just making sure that it’s without carbs. So, our life is a balance between all those movement, nutrition, stress.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:05):
Well, that brings up a great point. So, here we have a carbo-holic over here. [inaudible 00:26:15]. And then… Yeah, I mean, that’s okay. And you’re anti-carb. You finish eating early and when do you eat breakfast? When do you break your fast?
Merav Moore (00:26:29):
So, usually, I finish dinner about 7:00, and then-
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:34):
Okay.
Merav Moore (00:26:34):
I eat breakfast at around 10:00.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:38):
Around 10:00? Okay.
Merav Moore (00:26:39):
Mmm-hmm.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:42):
All right. And so, on the opposite, you’re finishing dinner at what time?
Michal Moore (00:26:46):
9:00.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:48):
Nine o’clock? Okay.
Michal Moore (00:26:48):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:50):
And then, what time do you eat in the morning?
Michal Moore (00:26:50):
10:00.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:26:54):
10:00? Okay. So, you don’t have as big a fasting window?
Michal Moore (00:27:00):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:27:01):
Okay. Oh, so this is great. So, you’ve made Lumen. And so, what is your Lumen device at… Well, at 10 o’clock in the morning for both of you. Are you both burning fat at that time, or? Yeah.
Michal Moore (00:27:26):
Not [inaudible 00:27:27] always. Not always.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:27:26):
Not always?
Michal Moore (00:27:29):
Not always, not always. Usually, also I’m taking my measurement after I’m doing a workout and fasting. And then, I’m able to shift to fat. So, not all mornings I’m wake up on fat burn. But, it’s totally okay. Because, not every day, we need to wake up on fat burn, right? Our metabolic health is not something that today I have it, and tomorrow I don’t. With Lumen, we are taking your measurement. It’s like a snapshot during the week and we calculate it and take into account also the context. So, it’s not that, if today I wake up and I’m burning mainly carbs. So, today I’m metabolically not healthy. No. I mean, makes sense. Yesterday, I ate more than I needed and it’s totally okay. So, we want to see a trend, all towards using more fat and to see you more often waking up on fat burn.
But, it’s not that if one day, or I don’t know, every time in a while, you’re going to wake up on carb burn, so you are not metabolically healthy. So, it’s something that it’s much more holistic. I want to say something about the fasting. We find something… Just because, I know it will be interesting for you. We saw in our data, we have more than 6 million metabolic measurements, yeah? And we have the log of the fasting time for our users. And we see that women, only women that are metabolically not flexible. So, during the fast, they starting to shift a bit towards fat, but then after 14 hours of fasting, they’re starting to shift back into carbs.
Meaning, their body is inserted into stress mode, when they stop using fat. And then, they turn into carbs. But, women that are mid metabolically flexible… So, day after 16 hours starting to insert into stress mode and women that are metabolically flexible, like me. I never insert almost into stress mode. And I’m able to shift to fat burn after 12 hours, 14 hours, or 16 hours. So, it’s very personal, all these fasting impact.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:30:13):
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Now, that brings up a question. Everybody is aware of the Keto Diet. And you want to burn Ketones as fuel. And my last book said, “No, no, no, it’s not what you think. Ketones are not a great fuel, believe it or not.” But, so your device is not measuring Ketone production, right?
Michal Moore (00:38:55):
No.
Merav Moore (00:38:56):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:38:57):
Right. And there are ketone measuring devices out there.
Michal Moore (00:39:03):
Mmm-hmm.
Merav Moore (00:39:03):
Mmm-hmm.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:39:05):
And whether, or not that’s a good thing, or bad thing is a subject for another debate. But, I think your point is that there’s a lot of people that are obsessed with being in Ketosis. That it’s somehow, the perfect fuel and your brain loves Ketones. And in fact, the human evidence on that, is not true. Your brain certainly can use Ketones as a fuel. And that’s really one of the reasons Ketones exist, because they’re small water-soluble fat molecules that can get past the blood brain barrier and free fatty acids literally can’t get through. But, the idea that we should always be in Ketosis… You’re not always in ketosis.
Michal Moore (00:40:00):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:40:00):
No. And I don’t think you would want to be, would you?
Michal Moore (00:40:07):
No, I’m not in Ketosis at all. The fact that I’m using fat in the morning, does not mean that I’m in Ketosis. Right? I mean we can-
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:40:12):
Right. No, that’s right.
Michal Moore (00:40:16):
Carbs, fat. And then, if I will keep avoiding carbs and eat high-fat diet, only then, I will start to shift into a Ketosis. Also, one of the problems in Ketosis, the way I see it, is that when you are going back to enjoy a normal diet, meaning you want to enjoy carbs. So then, you are gaining all the weight back. Because, your body loses the flexibility to use carbs. So, when we are avoiding carbs for too long, basically our body stopped producing the two enzymes, glycogen synthase and PDH. Those enzymes are responsible to take glucose and produce energy from it, or to take the extra glucose and to store this as glycogen. So, when we are avoiding carbs for too long, well basically, our body stopped producing those enzymes. We can go back and produce them, but by the time that we will do that, we already going to gain all the weight back.
So, this is one, also of the problems with Keto. We see many of our users that come with very strong agenda of Keto, but gradually when they are starting to use Lumen and they become less-
Merav Moore (00:41:40):
Religious.
Michal Moore (00:41:41):
Less religious, and they starting to enjoy carbs, because carbs are not evil, we are getting many good things from carbs. We’re getting a lot of fibers from carbs, just depending on the type of carbs. So, not that donut that you want to eat every day.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:41:58):
So, let me go back to the point that you’ve noticed with your studies and that is there’s a number of women, let me make sure I’m saying this correctly, that even after a 12-hour fast, which is actually not a long time. That’s stopping eating dinner at eight o’clock and having breakfast at eight o’clock in the morning, and that’s pretty normal. Even some people at that point, will stop burning fat and start burning carbs, even though they’re not eating and that stress mode. Does that explain why a lot of… There’s a lot of talk in social media, that women don’t do well with a Ketogenic diet compared to men. And that’s a generalized term, but I think your observation is important, because so many people, and I’m one of them, think that we should really aim for a 16-hour, maybe even an 18-hour window of fasting, at least five days a week, in my opinion. But, what I hear you’re saying, is there’s a lot of women that not only can’t do that, but probably shouldn’t do that. Is that summarizing well?
Merav Moore (00:43:36):
I think that, fasting is an amazing skill. We just need to manage it properly. So, if someone is used to fast eight hours and is used to live on carbs, I think that gradually, she… Yeah, because I think, that the problem is mainly around women. She gradually need to prolong her fast. So, those women that are metabolically not flexible, I would not start with 16 hours, or 14 hours, because their body is still not there. They gradually need to push their body into the ability that they can practice, the mitochondrion is practicing and know how to use fat for energy. So, I’m with you about the importance of fasting. I just think, that it’s something that we should manage and we should do it gradually. The same as someone that he’s doing high carb, I will not ask him from 30-carb serving, let’s go to three carb serving. He will lose it.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:44:46):
And in my book, Unlocking The Keto Code, that’s exactly what I want people to do. I want them to, if you have breakfast at 8:00 in the morning, you’re not going to be one of those people who can suddenly have breakfast at noon and do well. But, if I ask you for a week to move your breakfast to 9:00 in the morning, instead of 8:00. And do that for a week, or even two weeks. And then, the following week, go to 9:30, or 10:00 and work our way up gradually. Because, I see the same thing in my practice, that people who are not metabolically flexible, fall flat on their face. Because, they can’t do that. It’d be like asking me to run an Ironman. Sorry, I have to get some practice in. Could I do it? Sure. Do I want to do it? No. Because, I actually think it’s really bad for you, but that’s a whole nother discussion,
Michal Moore (00:45:53):
But, it’s good to your soul.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:45:56):
There you go. Well, if you’ve read any of my books, my wife was an excellent marathoner. And at the age of 50, when I showed her the data of the damage she was doing to her body, she hung up her shoes, so… But, that’s another story.
Michal Moore (00:46:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:46:18):
But, good for you for doing an Ironman. All right. So, let me get back to Lumen. So, all right. How does an individual use a Lumen, to help them learn how to be metabolically flexible? Because, I assume that’s really what you want this device to be used for, yes?
Michal Moore (00:46:43):
Yes.
Merav Moore (00:46:43):
Mmm-hmm.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:46:46):
All right. So, walk us through it. How does it work?
Michal Moore (00:46:48):
Okay. So, I will say to you, what are we currently working on, not what is the current experience. Because, the current experience is much more focused on weight loss and less on metabolic flexibility. The new version of Lumen, is that the moment that you download the app, yes and you have a Lumen, we first of all, do a metabolic assessment. Meaning, we are asking you to breathe in the morning and before going to bed, in order to better understand how well your mitochondria is functioning. So, someone that is metabolically flexible, will wake up when his body is more on fat burn and he will go to bed when he’s not overloaded with carbs. So, after this metabolic assessment, you get a score of where you are, from someone that is pre-diabetic-
Merav Moore (00:47:42):
Mm.
Michal Moore (00:47:42):
To someone that is super healthy, high energy level, can enjoy life, not having this drop of energy.
So, you understand where you are. Also, we are creating for you, a baseline of your lifestyle. Because, gradually Lumen wants to improve your lifestyle. What is that lifestyle? Nutrition, movement, sleep and stress management. So, we have those four pillars. You understand where you are now, you understand what is the impact of all of those things on your metabolic health? And then, we are walking you through a journey of weeks. For example, we are giving you each week, what is the focus of that week? For example, I know that Merav, she’s overeating carbs. So, the first week will be, “Merav, let’s reduce the amount of carbs in that week. And in the end of the week, let’s see what has the impact of what you did, on your metabolic health?” So, by having this biofeedback, so Merav is now seeing what is the impact.
And she’s much more encouraged to keep changing her behavior. Then, after those weeks, in which we are helping you to improve a healthy lifestyle, as Merav said before, eventually it’s a balance, right? Not all my life, I’m going to live in a plan. “Okay, this week let’s focus on low-carb and next week let’s focus on eating finish early.” This is not how I live my life today. I live my life today, as this is a balance of four of those pillars. Every day, I wake up in the morning and breathe into Lumen. And Lumen, this metabolic measurement in the morning is sensitive to lifestyle. This is Merav model. So, by tracking your metabolism every day and by tracking your data, your lifestyle data, we all the time can make sure that you are on the right track. And if not, we can say, “Merav, pay attention. The last three days, you are eating too much. You are starting to decrease your metabolic health. Let’s improve it by increasing the amount of steps.”
So, we are constantly measuring your metabolic health, your metabolic flexibility, and we are constantly measuring the impact of your lifestyle on that. And by that, we all the time, can navigate you towards what things that you should do better, what things you should keep doing and what things that maybe, for now, let’s avoid.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:50:19):
So, let’s say I do my metabolic assessment and I’m burning carbs in the morning and I’m burning carbs at night-
Merav Moore (00:50:19):
Mmm-hmm.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:50:28):
And maybe, I go, “I don’t believe it.” And I do it again. And I’m burning carbs in the morning and I’m burning carbs at night. Should I just throw up my hands and say, “I’m screwed. I can’t get out of this mess and I’m not going to even try.” Do some people do that?
Michal Moore (00:50:50):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:50:51):
No?
Okay. Oh, well good. Okay.
Michal Moore (00:50:54):
When the people are motivated to enjoy quality of life. I mean, they understand that, the value of becoming healthier is under their control, there’s no magic. I mean, it’s our metabolism, it’s what’s happening within us. And what we are doing, has the impact on it. So, it’s under our control. So, I think that they are even more motivated.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:51:24):
Now, you mentioned sleep as one of the four pillars. And I absolutely agree with you. When I was a very busy heart surgeon… And heart surgeons don’t get a lot of sleep at night, because we’re operating in the middle of the night and blah, blah, blah. I gained a lot of weight, because I was very hungry for carbohydrates. Do you guys see on Lumen, when people aren’t getting enough sleep, they’re much more likely to be burning carbohydrates? Yeah?
Michal Moore (00:52:01):
Yes. We have the user that…
Merav Moore (00:52:01):
Mark.
Michal Moore (00:52:06):
Mark. We have the user, that from his point of view, he did everything right. He did low-carb. He start eating early. He did a lot of workout, but still he wasn’t able to gradually shift into waking up on fat burn. And once we looked on his data and we saw that he just is not having enough sleep. He slept four and a half hours consistently.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:52:36):
Consistently.
Michal Moore (00:52:37):
And we gave them that insight. And once he understand that and he improved his sleep habits, you immediately saw that shift into fat. It was amazing to see it.
Merav Moore (00:52:50):
Yeah. We even now, have a research collaboration to see how night shift affect morning metabolism. So, I think it will be very, very insightful.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:53:06):
All right. Another complaint. Mothers with young children don’t get a lot of sleep. And what do you say to a mother who doesn’t get a lot of sleep, that eventually you will? Or, do you have some tricks, to help out offset that lack of sleep?
Michal Moore (00:53:30):
So, as I said, it’s a balance, right? Because, when you have children, yes, you might not be able to sleep properly. The same as sometimes, when you have children, for example, she had a month when she couldn’t find the time to do workout, yes?
Merav Moore (00:53:50):
Her month was six months.
Michal Moore (00:53:54):
So, it is a balance. So, we have here, in the company, a mom, also, she’s not having enough sleep. So, she’s trying to do five minutes of meditation, just to reduce a bit of the stress and to help a bit to recovery. But, this is life and we are working with what we have. So, there is no real logic to say to a mom, “Look, just… You need to sleep more.” She’s not able to. It will pass. She can do in the meantime, to pay attention more to nutrition and maybe five minutes of meditation.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:54:32):
Well, I’ve got a question for you. You may know that I want everyone to go get a dog, for multiple reasons, including stress reduction. And also, they make you go walk twice a day, whether you want to, or not. Have you used Lumen to look at the effect of having a dog on-
Michal Moore (00:54:32):
No.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:54:54):
Fat burning and… Well, you need to do a study, right away. Okay.
Michal Moore (00:55:00):
I will add it-
Merav Moore (00:55:01):
Wow.
Michal Moore (00:55:02):
With the analysis. This is genius.
Merav Moore (00:55:05):
I didn’t know that about you. I read about you and your books and about also, okay, your wife. And I didn’t know about the story of the dog.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:55:18):
Yeah, actually. Well, we have four dogs, but I write patients a prescription, on a prescription pad, to get a dog. And it’s amazing, a number of them actually bring the prescription back framed. And said, “It is the best prescription a doctor has ever given me.” And then, they bring their little dog in, or a big dog in and yeah.
Michal Moore (00:55:46):
I have a dog.
Dr. Steven Gundry (00:55:49):
There you go, all right. And you don’t, so we’re going to have a test here. [inaudible 00:55:54]. Maybe, that’s why you need more carbohydrates. I think, that’s it. So, you have a lot of data. And can you share some research, or success stories? For instance, the person who wasn’t sleeping enough. I mean, what are you learning about what this device can do?
Michal Moore (00:56:19):
Merav, maybe you want to share about the Ichilov study.
Merav Moore (00:56:23):
Mmm-hmm [inaudible 00:56:23].
Well, this is a really interesting clinical study that we’ve done on pre-diabetic patients. It was a quote of 30 people and around 50, from the Endocrinological Department here and the top hospitals in Israel recruited them. And they used Lumen for three months. And we measured their health at the beginning, health biomarkers, such as HDA, [inaudible 00:57:02] fasting, HbA1c, weight, circumference, body fat, everything. And then, after three months, really, it was very exciting to see how they improved their health. They reduced their HbA1c, they lost weight, literally everything. So, only by using Lumen. Now, again, like Michal said, it’s not that Lumen is a medication, but definitely the biofeedback and the sense of control and the fact that you can see what you’ve done and how it’s affecting it, it encourages you to continue.
And another really interesting thing that we’ve noticed, is the connection between phases in the monthly cycle, to metabolism. It was about, I think, thousands of women who logged their monthly cycle, and you can see how their metabolism shifts. And how, when you compare it to the amount of carbs that they consume, you can see that in very specific phases of the monthly cycle, we tend to consume more carbohydrates. It was very exciting to see. We are like a huge research institute. Lumen has more than 6 million metabolic measurements and their contexts.
Michal Moore (00:58:31):
Lumen is built on synergy between users and us. So, by them providing us data, we are able to analyze and to give them back more insight. And basically, this is how everything began. Because, Merav and myself, we build the first prototype only to ourself. We didn’t plan to have Lumen, right?
And we asked from family and friends to start breathing for our prototype, because we needed a validation. We needed data to make sure that our method is correct. And then, once we started with family and friends, suddenly those friends said, “Wow, it’s really interesting.”
Merav Moore (00:59:17):
“Can I use it?”
Michal Moore (00:59:17):
“Can I use it?” And then, we needed more data. So, we recruited better testers. “Can you please breathe, so we can validate the measurement?” And they also said, “Oh, wow. But, this is very cool. Can we get it? Can we also use it?” And gradually, this is also how Lumen is built today. We are even asking in the community, we have an amazing community at Lumen. We are asking them to log different things, so we can get data, to better understand metabolism and to give it back to our users and to the world will be able to better understand that the [inaudible 00:59:59]. So, it’s very exciting for Merav and myself, because for us, we’re still doing research.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:00:08):
Yeah, yeah. Now, I got to ask, since you brought up the cycle, so when in the cycle? Is it the ovulation cycle, when women want more carbohydrates? Or, do you remember?
Michal Moore (01:00:23):
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:00:23):
Well, which makes evolutionary sense. Because, I see that in my patients, particularly in very thin women, who can’t get pregnant, or don’t even ovulate, because you don’t carry enough fat stores. To actually think, if you starved and you were pregnant, that’s not good, but yeah. So, you want to actually add fat at the time of ovulation, just in case. [inaudible 01:00:56]. So, that’s very interesting. So, what you’re saying… Maybe, the whole take home of this whole hour, is it’s okay, once a month in your ovulation cycle, you’re going to crave carbs and don’t fight it.
Michal Moore (01:00:23):
Yeah.
Merav Moore (01:00:23):
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:01:14):
Is that a good message?
Merav Moore (01:01:16):
Yes.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:01:17):
And even you guys, that’s okay? So, don’t go against your biologic design. Well, you heard it here first. No, I mean, I think that’s exciting research, because so many times, we shame people’s behavior and, “Oh, shame on you for wanting those carbohydrates. Shame, you have to be low-carb.”
Merav Moore (01:01:45):
No, I really do think we have to listen to our body. Think of hormonal. We do need also to pay attention, when you eat carbon, not to eat it too much. But, all those strict guidelines, it’s very difficult to follow. It’s very difficult to stick with and we should just, balance life.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:02:15):
So, let me ask you one thing before we go, have your users, are they astute enough to say, “When I have a cup of coffee in the morning, I burn sugar instead of fat?” Or, “I have tea in the morning and I burn fat instead of sugar?” Or, is it that sophisticated? Because, some people have noticed that coffee makes their blood sugar go up a little bit and that if you put cinnamon in your coffee, it keeps it down. But, do people track that with Lumen?
Michal Moore (01:02:55):
So, people track after workout. So, they take a measurement before and after, to see whether their body shifts and by that, they even optimizing the type of workout. They take a measurement also before the workout, to make sure that they have enough energy. So if, for example, I am now going to do a HIIT workout, high intensity. They want to make sure that they have carbs. And if not, so they’re taking a banana, or something like that.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:03:22):
Interesting, okay.
Michal Moore (01:03:23):
Mm. People tracking after the fasting. So, they starting the fast and they take a measurement during the fast to see when they should stop fasting, in order to see, they’re looking for that shift. People see, we have just now posted in the community. Someone posted that, “Guys, this is super important, the quality of your food. I thought, that it’s only about counting markers and counting carbs.” But, she said, that at the moment that she started to pay attention to the quality of her food, she immediately started to shift into fat. So, this is something that is more about the habit that she tracks, and less about snapshot of pre-post workout, or during the fast. So, those are the things… Also, sleep. People also tracking about sleep with Lumen. So, they want to make sure that they’re okay.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:04:24):
And last, what about alcohol at night? Have you noticed any effect? Well, okay. What have you found about alcohol consumption in Lumen?
Michal Moore (01:04:36):
I have to admit that we didn’t ask the user to log their alcohol.
Merav Moore (01:04:40):
Yeah.
Michal Moore (01:04:41):
So, we don’t know, but we so much want to know.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:04:44):
The reason I ask, is I read just, an email from a colleague of mine, he tracks his Ketones and his blood sugars. And he’s noticed that when he has wine, or a little extra wine at night, that his morning Ketone production is actually quite low and his morning blood sugars are higher than when he doesn’t have that. And it was an observation. And I said, “A Lumen device would be very interesting to track that effect.” Yeah, because at least, in the United States, COVID, the pandemic has increased alcohol consumption, for obvious reasons-
Michal Moore (01:05:35):
[inaudible 01:05:35].
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:05:37):
Yeah. So, yeah. So, I want you to put that in your study. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been great. So, I mean, you go to lumen.com-
Michal Moore (01:05:49):
Lumen.-
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:05:50):
Or, yeah?
Merav Moore (01:05:50):
Lumen.me
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:05:53):
Okay. And is that the only place to get Lumen? I mean, can you go on Amazon? Or-
Michal Moore (01:05:59):
No. Only through our website, lumen.me.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:06:04):
Okay. Okay. All right. Well, very good. Well, best of luck to you. Keep up the research. And I take it you post about your findings on lumen.com? Great, all right. All right, thanks very much and great talking with both of you. Nice to meet both of you. [inaudible 01:06:31].
Michal Moore (01:06:30):
Very nice meeting you. Bye-bye.
Heather Dubrow (01:06:31):
Hi everyone, it’s Heather Dubrow, telling you to check out Heather Dubrow’s World on PodcastOne. Every week, we discuss the hippest, hottest news trends in health, wellness, parenting style, and so much more. Including, all things Housewives and Botched. Download new episodes of Heather Dubrow’s World on Thursdays and Fridays on PodcastOne, Apple Podcast, Spotify and Amazon Music.
Dr. Steven Gundry (01:06:58):
All right, it’s time for the audience question of the week. This question comes from Test Channel on YouTube. She says, “I’ve been trying to find out more about AFib. And one of the things that came up was tyramine in foods, potentially being a trigger. Two foods that contain it, are kimchi and sauerkraut. So, I was wondering, especially with you being a heart doctor, if there are any foods you would suggest avoiding, if you have AFib?” Well, as a heart surgeon who specialized in electrophysiology and ablation of Atrial Fib, I can tell you my personal feeling and that of many others, is that atrial fibrillation is in large part, caused by inflammation in the heart muscle itself. And simplistically, that inflammation causes the atria, the top receiving chambers of the heart, to be ticklish. And it’s that ticklishness from the inflammation, very much like you want to scratch something, that’s like a mosquito bite, that’s inflammation, is a major cause of atrial fibrillation.
And in my practice, I’ve been sent many patients with sudden atrial fibrillation, that we found that it was the inflammation in their body that was causing it. And a number of my patients following the Plant Paradox Program and eliminating lectins from their diet and sealing their leaky gut, we see the atrial fibrillation actually self-correct, or we can correct it with an electric shock, but then they never go back into atrial fibrillation. So, when I see this, I’m more and more convinced that atrial fibrillation is not caused by tyramine in food, it’s actually caused by inflammation. And again, as Hippocrates said, “All disease begins in the gut.” And that includes atrial fibrillation in my opinion, but great question. All right, it’s time for the review of the week. The question comes from Tommy Mai on YouTube.
“Thank you, Dr. Gundry. Followed your diet and it saved my life. I will always support your products.” Well, thanks a lot, Tommy. That’s why we do this. That’s why I spend my time every week, giving you new important information, like I think was contained on today’s show. And thank you for using my products. As you know, I design these products personally, based on either, my research with real patients in my clinics, or on the research of others that I hold in high regard. And I test these on myself and my family and my patients before they ever are released to you.
And so, thanks for that vote of competence. And I’d love to hear how the diet saved your life. If you want to write back in and tell us. Thanks for joining me on this episode of The Dr. Gundry Podcast, before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. And if you want to watch each episode of The Dr Gundry Podcast, you could always find me on YouTube, at youtube.com/DrGundry, because I’m Dr. Gundry and I’m always looking out for you.
